Ukraine`s Tymoshenko Blasts Exclusion From Poll

[Packman]

Score or no score - but fair enough that the block is back for elections..
The idea to exclude the representation of some 15-20% of the elctorate for formalistic reasons, is simply disgusting.

Completely agree with you Claus...is it the supreme court that did that? 

[Admin]

Yes, it is important that it was the Arbitrary Court decision and not an undercarpet activity...

[Tim]

she wasn't found guilty

By who - by venal judges or by the criminal power? Yeah, if a young girl trades sex for money at a backdoor that doesn't necessarily make her a prostitute, she may just need some money to get drunk or high but her soul is still pure and innocent. I recalled about this because not that long ago someone was talking here about night clubs crowded with prostitutes. Have these girls in nightr clubs been found guilty of prostitution?

P.S. I wonder if anyone was found guilty of "Moscow brainwashing"

[Packman]

she wasn't found guilty

By who - by venal judges or by the criminal power? Yeah, if a young girl trades sex for money at a backdoor that doesn't necessarily make her a prostitute, she may just need some money to get drunk or high. I recalled about this because not that long ago someone was talking here about night clubs crowded with prostitutes. Have these girls in nightr clubs been found guilty of prostitution?

P.S. I wonder if anyone was found guilty of "Moscow brainwashing"

Well, Tim, what standard do you want to have?

You have in the case of Clinton, a guy that was accused of sexual harrassment, if you accept 100% the accusers story, which was basically he asked for a blow job and she refused, and nothing else transpired between them and their were no implications for her job. Sexual harassment, as the US defines it needs to be a pattern.  So, the judge didn't even hear the case. 

By law is Clinton a sexual harasser - No, because he wasn't convicted
Does he like to find sexual partners that are not his wife --  Yes, its documented, but there's no law against that.

Quite frankly, who care if they are prostitutes or not...its really their business, as long as they aren't forced into it by someone else.

[BrianPBG]

She was most likely guilty as receipts don't lie and neither does her history.  The situation at the time was one of regional gas monopolies, setup by Lazarenko, who just happened to be part of the same clan as ex president Kuchma, the Dnipro clan.  Tymoshenko took advantage of the situation and did what a lot of successful Ukrainian bussiness people have done, used whatever means to get ahead. No surprise Tymoshenko is also a Dnipro clan member, which has helped her along in her career.  On the other side is Yanukovych who is a Donetsk clan associate, now they are much more sinister and devious, just ask billionaire Rinat Akhmetov 

[Packman]

Guilty of what exactly?

[BrianPBG]

'She was accused of having given Lazarenko kickbacks in exchange for her company's stranglehold on the country's gas supplies.'

http://jamestown.org/edm/article.php?article_id=2372328
'Prime Minister Yanukovych has a criminal record. Yanukovych served two prison terms: in 1967-70 for theft and robbery and in 1970-1972 for the ?infliction of bodily injuries of medium seriousness.? There were reports that a Donetsk oblast court had allegedly annulled his two convictions in 1978, but the relevant documents were found to be forgeries executed when Yanukovych first became prime minister after 2002.
Yushchenko has defended his nomination of Yanukovych as prime minister in August 2006, claiming he had little alternative. However, Article 12 of Ukraine?s 1993 law on State Service clearly states that persons with a criminal record cannot be appointed or voted into a government post. This seemingly would eliminate Yanukovych?s eligibility to be prime minister or president.'

[Packman]

'She was accused of having given Lazarenko kickbacks in exchange for her company's stranglehold on the country's gas supplies.'

http://jamestown.org/edm/article.php?article_id=2372328
'Prime Minister Yanukovych has a criminal record. Yanukovych served two prison terms: in 1967-70 for theft and robbery and in 1970-1972 for the ?infliction of bodily injuries of medium seriousness.? There were reports that a Donetsk oblast court had allegedly annulled his two convictions in 1978, but the relevant documents were found to be forgeries executed when Yanukovych first became prime minister after 2002.
Yushchenko has defended his nomination of Yanukovych as prime minister in August 2006, claiming he had little alternative. However, Article 12 of Ukraine?s 1993 law on State Service clearly states that persons with a criminal record cannot be appointed or voted into a government post. This seemingly would eliminate Yanukovych?s eligibility to be prime minister or president.'

Tony Saprano...I mean Victor Yanukovych cleans up well!

[Tim]

Well, Tim, what standard do you want to have?

Oh, pretty straight ones. There hasn't been real justice in this country for years. Since 1991, in fact. In this situation it doesn't matter if a thief was found guilty or not. As I said if a young girl trades sex for money at a backdoor, she is definitely a prostitute and don't tell me she may just need some money but her soul is still pure and innocent, ok?

Moreover, there was the system like BrianPBG mentioned and in that system keeping a soul pure and innocent was impossible. You either played the game or you got out or never came in, actually. So those stories about a banker with "hands which never stole" are just fairy tales. Kind of "Yes, I was a member of the Nazi party and served in the SS but that was just how I made my living and I didn't do anything bad" story.

Guilty of what exactly?

Bribery, cheating, stealing, tax fraud, forgery, as far as I can recall.

I wonder why you didn't ask "Who was found guilty of forgery?" having read: but the relevant documents were found to be forgeries executed when Yanukovych first became prime minister after 2002. Well, Packman, what standard do you have?

[Packman]

Your talking about the document about Tymoshkenko where found to be forgeries when Yanukovich came to office.  If I understand you right...Wow, what a surprise!

As far as I can tell Yanukovich was found guilty when the state did have a functioning justice system.  What might that tell you about Victor Saprano...oh I mean Yaukovich...

[Tim]

Your talking about the document about Tymoshkenko where found to be forgeries when Yanukovich came to office.  If I understand you right...Wow, what a surprise!

You didn't but it doesn't really matter. The funniest thing about Tymoshkenko is that in 2005 she reached an agreement of unknown nature with Putin's minions and as a result, particularly, Russian Prosecutor General's Office dropped charges against her. Evil tongues said she had traded some compromising evidences againts other Ukranian politicians including Yuschenko.

[Packman]

I wonder seriously though that now that she's not PM, if she really feels comfortable traveling to Russia, lest her face take a turn for the worse!

[ecocks]

I find it difficult to believe whoever said the US has evidence regarding her bribery charge.  He is currently serving a prison sentence and she has visited America since that conviction.  How about a reasonable source for that claim and an explanation why they would not have arrested and prosecuted her under the same laws they got him on?

Just a couple of the first citations you run into when looking at her past.  She seems (to me at least) to be a cut above the average politician in this area of the world.  Yuschenko served under Kuchma and seems to be considered relatively clean as well. 

TODAY
   Main weekly events from Infobank News Agency


   21 May 2001

 UKRAINE'S HIGH COURT ANNULS KYIV COURT RULING ON YULIA TYMOSHENKO
   ARREST

   KYIV. The board of Ukraine's High Court has approved the appeal
   by its chairman, Vitaly Boiko, protesting the ruling of the Kyiv
   City Court on the arrest of former Vice Premier Yulia Tymoshenko.
   The Inter TV Channel reports.

   As Infobank has reported earlier, On April 2, Ukraine's Supreme
   Court suspended the decision by the Kyiv City Court cancelling
   the verdict by a lower rayon court to arrest the former vice premier
   and head of the Batkivshchyna Party Yulia Tymoshenko.
   The Supreme Court took the decision following his appeal filed
   on April 2 which protested the decision of the Kyiv City Court
   of March 30 on the repeated arrest of Yu. Tymishenko. KCC passed
   the ruling, following the appeal of the Prosecutor General's Office
   against the Pechersk Rayon Court which annulled the arrest of the
   former vice premier and president of the United Energy Systems
   of Ukraine Corporation.
   Immediately after her release on March 27, Yulia Tymoshenko was
   moved to the Kyiv-based Medicom private hospital. On March 31,
   the Kyiv City Court abrogated her arrest sanction. The court went
   into session at 9 p.m. on March 30 immediately after the departure
   of the Parliamentray Assembly of the Council of Europe's delegation.
   The session lasted for one hour and no defense lawyers have been
   invited to take part in it.

 
PROSECUTOR GENERAL SVIATOSLAV PISKUN SAYS CRIMINAL CASES AGAINST YULIA TYMOSHENKO, HER SPOUSE AND FORMER OFFICERS OF CORPORATION INTEGRAL ENERGY SYSTEMS OF UKRAINE HAVE BEEN CANCELLED, IN VIEW OF LACKING CORPUS DELICTI
/Ukrinform/. According to prosecutor general Sviatoslav Piskun, the criminal cases against Yulia Tymoshenko, her spouse and former senior officers of the corporation Integral Energy Systems of Ukraine have been cancelled, in view of lacking corpus delicti. As Sviatoslav Piskun noted, he has got a message from the US Justice Department, which says that Mrs Tymoshenko has been acquitted of all the charges. Commenting on legal proceedings, instituted against Yulia Tymoshenko by the Russian Military Prosecutor Office, Sviatoslav Piskun said actually the charges of misuse of authority were brought against Russian Defense Ministry officials, one of whom "mentioned Yulia Tymoshenko's name."


Former Deputy Prime Minister and party leader arrested
On 13 February the Batkivshchyna (Motherland) Party leader and former Deputy Prime Minister Yuliya Tymoshenko was arrested.

Tymoshenko was previously charged with "smuggling and the falsification of documents." To keep herself out of prison she signed a written pledge not to flee Ukraine. Additional charges have now been brought against her, in particular, bribing former Ukrainian Prime Minister Pavlo Lazarenko to the amount of USD 79 million. Clause 170, part 2 of the Criminal Code calls for imprisonment from seven to ten years for such crimes.

During a news conference on the same day, Deputy Prosecutor General Mykola Obykhod rejected the link between Tymoshenko's arrest and the establishment of the National Salvation Forum of which Tymoshenko is a leader.
Following the arrest the Motherland Party issued a statement saying that the arrest "has been carried out following a direct order of [President Kuchma], who in political agony may realize perfectly well that his days in the country's Supreme Office are numbered." It also said that Tymoshenko was arrested because she "dared challenge the criminal-oligarchic regime of President Leonid Kuchma, as well as corruption and the shadow economy..."

On 15 February around 30 members of the Motherland Party picketed the prison where Yuliya Tymoshenko had been imprisoned and demanded her release. Requests for Tymoshenko's release also came from the Ukrainian People's Movement, and women's organizations in Sevastopol (a city in the Crimean Peninsula) appealed to national women's rights groups to protest against the arrest.
Some observers have argued that the arrest of Tymoshenko has deepened the political crisis in Ukraine and diminishes the possibility of civilized political dialogue between the opposition and state power.

Ed

[BrianPBG]

You didn't but it doesn't really matter. The funniest thing about Tymoshkenko is that in 2005 she reached an agreement of unknown nature with Putin's minions and as a result, particularly, Russian Prosecutor General's Office dropped charges against her. Evil tongues said she had traded some compromising evidences againts other Ukranian politicians including Yuschenko.

Well Interpol suspended the charges at first, because the President, PM, and parliament members all share immunity in Ukraine, and Russia had to respect the Ukrainian constitution which guarantees that immunity.  However, after she was released from the government, Interpol erased all charges against her which I think would coincide with what you were talking about.

I find it difficult to believe whoever said the US has evidence regarding her bribery charge.  He is currently serving a prison sentence and she has visited America since that conviction.  How about a reasonable source for that claim and an explanation why they would not have arrested and prosecuted her under the same laws they got him on?

Well the main source for such accusations has come from Matthew Brzezinski, nephew of Jimmy Carter's national security advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski.

"In his book "Casino Moscow," Brzezinski, describes the Tymoshenko of the 1990s as the "eleven-billion-dollar woman" who controlled just under a fourth of the Ukrainian gross domestic product. Brzezinski also claims that the US government has evidence of payments Tymoshenko made to the dubious former Ukrainian Prime Minister Pavel Lazarenko, who is currently in prison in San Francisco serving a sentence for fraud and money-laundering. From time to time, Lazarenko gives advice to his former prot?g? in the form of interviews conducted from his prison cell."

Mind you, the source he is getting the information from is far from 100% reliable, but with her imbedded connections and history with those connections and the situation at the time, most people I know in Ukraine believe she was guilty but forgive her, unlike others (Kuchma).  The main problem for any corrupt officials in Ukraine is that they share immunity while in office.  It has now become an upcoming election topic where they want to remove such immunity, however, it is guaranteed in the constitution, so that would require an amendment, not a simple resolution =\

[Claus]

Oh, but if I understand it right, constitution here states that a person convicted for crimes by a Ukrainian court, can not etc...
So, if your company - not you - is liable for violations of the law of one or more other!!!  countries, then that does not imply that you cannot run for office here. That's Yulia, and she may be innocent (of that)...
And if you - personally - are a thief, robber, mobster, and convicted for that by Ukrainian courts, then of course you can not run for nor hold office here. That's almost  the current prime minister.
So, she's all right, because she did no crime, and if her company did, it was in another country.
And he's all right, because he did commit crimes and was convicted, but it was in Soviet times and by Soviet courts.
Legally - pure jurisprudence - no difference.
From the moral point of view, there may be differences - depending on your attitude to ethics

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