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Author Topic: "The downfall of a beautiful langugage".  (Read 1295 times)
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JonathanCampion
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« on: June 13, 03:11 AM »

Just thought I'd share with you an email that arrived last night:

"Jon, read your feature in the Kyiv Post.   People like you should be in Moscow translating Russian, not Ukraine.  The official language in Ukraine is Ukrainian, try learning that.  Take a trip to Lviv and see how your Russian goes there.  It's sad that your contributing to the downfall of a beautiful langugage.  How would you feel if Welsh was spoken widely in England?"

Are they right? Thoughts?
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matlockk
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« Reply #1 on: June 13, 03:20 AM »

I think the writer is a little off the mark. He should have said "Imagine if English was widely spoken in Wales" Oops, err, it is, and Scotland and Ireland.

I fully understand the desire to ramp up the Ukrainian language and have no problem with that but the fact remains that for the majority here the working language is Russian. You could equally say "take your Ukrainian to Lugansk and see where that gets you..."

Other countries seem able to exist with dual languages, canada, switzerland et al. India has 35.

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JonathanCampion
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« Reply #2 on: June 13, 03:25 AM »

I replied, and I think I pointed out all the flaws in the argument without losing my temper, which I'm very proud of!
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Vera
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« Reply #3 on: June 29, 05:55 AM »

What I am more interested in, though, is how you ,Russian- speaking  expats ,cope now that everything is  in Ukrainian- official papers, movies on TV and in movie theaters dubbed in Ukrainian, most books being published here are in Ukrainian now. Ukrainian is used more and more in every day life ,so what do you do if you do not understand what is written in a document or if someone addresses you in Ukrainian in the street???
Is it a problem for you? Just wondering........
« Last Edit: June 29, 06:11 AM by Vera » Logged
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« Reply #4 on: June 29, 06:47 AM »

What I am more interested in, though, is how you –Russian- speaking  expats ,cope now that everything is  in Ukrainian- official papers, movies on TV and in movie theaters dubbed in Ukrainian, most books being published here are in Ukrainian now. Ukrainian is used more and more in every day life ,so what do you do if you do not understand what is written in a document or if someone addresses you in Ukrainian in the street???
Is it a problem for you? Just wondering........


When in the street, I answer in Russian if they speak Ukrainian (which in Odessa has never occured yet) and tell them I am English, my Russian is ok and my Ukrainian non-existant - 90% of the time they will continue to talk then in Russian, 10% of the time in English..........after they get over the shock that I am English not American  Roll Eyes.

As for the cinemas and books - again in Odessa there seems to be much more Russian literature on the shelves than Ukrainian (at the moment at least) and most films are still in Russian - the last time I went to the cinema and it was in Ukrainian almost 80% of the people got up and left as they did not understand it (although it was a sh*t film anyway- Transformers.....I went with the boy before you all start  Roll Eyes so that also may have been a reason  Undecided)

Anechka's sister, Masha, (who is 18 and obviously studied Ukrainian due to the recent political climate) dislikes the language and only speaks Russian now she has finished school.  Now she in at Odessa University of Economics, Business and Tourism, all the lessons are in Russian....why because the University has foreign students from Moldova and Russia also and Russian is the commonly understood langauge.  I would also add that in "our family" Masha and our son Vlad (13 years old, who also dislikes the Ukrainian language) are the only people who know Ukrainian other than Babooshka (72 years old) which would mean neither could talk to their immediate parents if they spoke Ukrainian Shocked

Ukraine is split along the East/West divide as we all know - those in the East will only speak Russian, those in the West only Ukrainian - Odessa in the South is also Russian speaking.

Both my parents were teachers and my father was once offered a job in Wales but turned it down as both my brother and I would have had to learn Welsh as part of the set curriculum which he stated would be a waste of our time, as nobody but the Welsh would ever use the language and it would never be used outside Wales (so fortunately we stayed in Hampshire).

Are the Welsh any less Welsh because they speak English or the Scottish or Irish any less Scottish or Irish because they speak English - of course not but they speak English because it is necessary for their future employment, business and recreation outside of their countries.....going on holiday to Egypt and speaking only Welsh will not get them far as the Egyptions (outside their own language) use German, Russian and English as secondary languages.  It is no different for the Ukrainian language.

In British schools, many offer French, German or Russian as a second language study at Secondary (High School) level.  The chances of them ever offering Ukrainian as a secondary language is practically zero.

The Russian school (in Moscow) where our boy studied before moving to Ukraine offered English and Spanish as second language studies......not Ukrainian, a country which happens to have a massive boarder with them, where many still regularly holiday and is still part of the CIS.  All of the existing CIS countries (of which Ukraine is still one) speak Russian as the first or second language to my knowledge (although I maybe wrong).  As visa free travel exists between these countries (for those who do not know the countries in the CIS are Russia, Ukraine, Moldova and Belarussia) the knowledge of Russian is therefore a must.

I have a feeling that the experiment in Wales back in the late 1970's, 1980's will have the same outcome in Ukraine and that as soon as students leave school (where instruction is compulsary) many will revert to using a language which is understood by the majority not the minority.

National history is national history, national culture is national culture and language is only a method of communication.  Undecided Smiley




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« Reply #5 on: July 03, 02:35 PM »

Nik,

I agree with your assessment of Ukrainian vs Russian.  Let me add one more thing.  The internet.  English is by far the largest component of the internet, but I wouldn't be surprised if Russian outnumbers Ukrainian on the internet 10:1 minimum.  Unless Ukraine authorities employ many thousands of people to translate full time, there will always be more knowledge available in Russian than Ukrainian. 

Worse, it seems many Ukrainian enthusiasts on the internet spend their time with petty little squabbles like this, in English, no less. 

Kiev vs. Kyiv --- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kiev/naming

If Ukrainian is such a beautiful language, why spend your internet time arguing with English speakers? 
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rjm
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« Reply #6 on: July 03, 04:12 PM »

Ive come across such comments before and they normally stem from Nationalists with an agenda.Iusually answer by saying Ilived in Moscow before arriving here so was already equiped with a bit of Russian.

As for Veras question regarding Ukrainian language in general, in truth I struggle with it, today I was in an Administrational building and was handed a form in Ukrainian to fill out  Shocked BIG PROBLEMS, the only words I know are ones that are very similar to the Russian version, eg tilki-tolko mist-most bilshe-bolshe etc!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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« Reply #7 on: July 04, 03:17 AM »

Here I am speaking about New Zealand not Ukraine but there are parallels.

99% of NZ speak English as a first language. English is a prerequisite for obvious reasons if you want to live outside of a small village (it is international, it dominates law, business).
 
 Various nationalist groups in NZ (with their own agendas) pushed for the indigenous language, Maori, as a 2nd language prerequisite. Trying to force-feed like this did not work as NZ’s (including of course Maori) are international people and far more interested in Japanese, Chinese, Spanish, (Australian Smiley, over 500,000 of us, including huge numbers of Maori, now live there!).

The government has provided the infrastructure options to keep alive the cultural identity of an ethnic minority.  The Maori language has sub-titles on some programs, there is a successful Maori language TV channel. There are Maori language options available beginning from full immersion pre-schools to throughout university level.  And there are other ways the language is promoted.
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Packman
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« Reply #8 on: August 10, 01:21 AM »

I cope with Ukrainian in the cinema by my girlfriend whispering the translations in my ear! Wink
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Moving
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« Reply #9 on: August 10, 05:16 AM »

Can I know something? During my week in Kiev is it possible that I was 99% of the times hearing people of all ages and backgrounds JUST speaking russian?
And was I high on booze or I was approached by waiters/waitress in Russian? Even at the airport...

I do not even understand Vera's question "what do you do is someone address you in Ukrainian?". I reply in Russian, as simple as that.

I have only meet 3 people speaking crap russian in Ukraine, they were 1 guy and 2 girls from Lviv in their young twenties. At least to my friend (the guy) I have explained NOT to make the same mistake committed by young brainwashed Estonians who can now even end up landing the worst jobs because the educated Russian-Estonians able to speak english, estonian AND RUSSIAN, will get the better ones. One very practical example are the estate agents...speak 3 languages you get 3 possible group of clients, speak just 2 and you reduce your possibilities.
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Vera
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« Reply #10 on: August 10, 09:42 AM »

With all respect Moving, my experience is quite different.
I know that more and more people in Kiev speak Ukrainian rather then Russian, I guess this is because I can compare to how it used to be once. As usual some of your comments are simply disrespectful of the country you visited.
I asked this because I am half Ukrainian and half Russian and I spent big part of my childhood in Moscow.
I do speak Ukrainian but not as fluently as I can speak Russian, therefore my question. For example if I am addressed in Ukrainian in the street of Kiev, especially by person from western Ukraine, who speaks distinct dialect, I at times find it difficult to answer in Ukrainian or even understanding them as Ukrainian from western part of the country resembles more polish language then Ukrainian. In any case I asked the question I wanted to ask and got my answers.




Can I know something? During my week in Kiev is it possible that I was 99% of the times hearing people of all ages and backgrounds JUST speaking russian?
And was I high on booze or I was approached by waiters/waitress in Russian? Even at the airport...

I do not even understand Vera's question "what do you do is someone address you in Ukrainian?". I reply in Russian, as simple as that.

I have only meet 3 people speaking crap russian in Ukraine, they were 1 guy and 2 girls from Lviv in their young twenties. At least to my friend (the guy) I have explained NOT to make the same mistake committed by young brainwashed Estonians who can now even end up landing the worst jobs because the educated Russian-Estonians able to speak english, estonian AND RUSSIAN, will get the better ones. One very practical example are the estate agents...speak 3 languages you get 3 possible group of clients, speak just 2 and you reduce your possibilities.

« Last Edit: August 10, 09:45 AM by Vera » Logged
Moving
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« Reply #11 on: August 10, 11:14 AM »

Vera I really suggest you to take a break: the aim of my life is not disrepecting the country I visit, this is just your sick prejudice. Anyway thats a pretty rich comment...I am accused of disrespect whilst you are the person being there and not speaking fluent ukrainian. Is this the attitude you reserve to the country you have often claimed to love so much?

PS.If someone from Lviv address you in ukrainian you reply this person in russian and thats all.

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Vera
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« Reply #12 on: August 10, 11:28 AM »

Vera I really suggest you to take a break: the aim of my life is not disrepecting the country I visit, this is just your sick prejudice. Anyway thats a pretty rich comment...I am accused of disrespect whilst you are the person being there and not speaking fluent ukrainian. Is this the attitude you reserve to the country you have often claimed to love so much?

PS.If someone from Lviv address you in ukrainian you reply this person in russian and thats all.



Look, dear moving, I speak 5 different languages with different degree of fluency and if addressed in Ukrainian will do my best to answer in Ukrainian if addressed in Hindi will try to respond in that language and so on. It is unfortunate that you tend to misunderstand what I say. I said my Ukrainian is good but not as fluent as my Russian .Does that diminish in any way my love or respect fro Ukraine? It only reflects the circumstances I grew up in, whereas half of the family spoke Russian the other Ukrainian. I do think you are being disrespectful passing your judgments as to who speaks "crap Russian in Ukraine: Both languages are spoken and to the extent that the language does not become a dividing issue in the society I like the fact that Ukrainian is more widely spoken now.

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Moving
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« Reply #13 on: August 10, 11:37 AM »

Vera I really suggest you to take a break: the aim of my life is not disrepecting the country I visit, this is just your sick prejudice. Anyway thats a pretty rich comment...I am accused of disrespect whilst you are the person being there and not speaking fluent ukrainian. Is this the attitude you reserve to the country you have often claimed to love so much?

PS.If someone from Lviv address you in ukrainian you reply this person in russian and thats all.



Look, dear moving, I speak 5 different languages with different degree of fluency and if addressed in Ukrainian will do my best to answer in Ukrainian if addressed in Hindi will try to respond in that language and so on. It is unfortunate that you tend to misunderstand what I say. I said my Ukrainian is good but not as fluent as my Russian .Does that diminish in any way my love or respect fro Ukraine? It only reflects the circumstances I grew up in, whereas half of the family spoke Russian the other Ukrainian. I do think you are being disrespectful passing your judgments as to who speaks "crap Russian in Ukraine: Both languages are spoken and to the extent that the language does not become a dividing issue in the society I like the fact that Ukrainian is more widely spoken now.

is more "widely spoken" than russian? or is "more widely spoken" than before?

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Vera
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« Reply #14 on: August 10, 11:43 AM »

In some regions is more widely spoken then Russian and in other regions more widely spoken then before!!!
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