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Author Topic: vacancy  (Read 4561 times)
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ecocks
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« Reply #90 on: June 24, 10:22 AM »

pls repost enlightening link

Ecocks if you are happy that the EU is going as politically correct as US, well good for you

i see just problems in that though

fortunately, at least in mediterranean europe, most of the laws go unlistened or cheated...we do not have time to waste and we do not aim at perfection.

RJM, can you read? I have been to Moscow's companies, I know little about Ukraine

Page 5 about 3-4 from the top.

It's your country.  If you're advocating ignoring your own laws take it up with your own people.
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« Reply #91 on: June 24, 11:01 AM »

A very entertaining thread folks.

Firstly, having tracked the article down (at least I think so  Undecided), the picture is sexual not sexist (albeit not the accepted norm in the majority of the developed nations for a job advertisement).  That said we are in Ukraine not in the UK/US/Germany where large fines would be given.  The text is however sexist as regards most developed nations laws (regardless of whether they are inforced or not) and sexist as most people would understand sexism.

Secondly, I would have to say in the years I spent in Moscow and the years I have been resident in Ukraine per capita there are many more beautiful women than the majority (exceptions probably being Moldova, Belarussia, Romania and Poland) of the rest of the EU.  It would be therefore more difficult to hire a less than aesthetically pleasing to the eye lady than in the UK for example.  It therefore begs the question why the advertisement had to be orientated in the way it was.

Of the rich and influencial people in Ukraine that I know to my knowledge none of them are "banging their staff" unless they are married to them.

To be fair to Moving, countries in the Mediteranian do seem to pay lip service to "sexism" far more than others.  Comments made by Italy's current PM on the international stage would back this up.  He remains however a very charasmatic, popular and entertaining leader in Italy.  People may say Bullfighting is an aborent "sport", myself included, but if you are Spanish it is part of your tradition, heritage and everyday life which you grow up part of.  The mediteranean attitude towards sexism is the same situation in which Moving has been raised.

In certain circumstances, even in the UK it is legal to display age and sex requirement for a job position.  Acting and modelling being just two examples in which sex and age are allowed to be advertised due to the nature of the work or charactor to be played.

Outside of this, any employer with a grain of experience knows that  despite writing a perfectly legal job vacancy, in any form of paper sift "positive descrimination" has, does and will continue to occur - only the truely ignorant, idealistic or naive amongst us will disagree this happens on a frequent basis.  It is therefore possible anywhere to remain within the law in placing the advertisement and still get a "trophy receptionist" who is not worth a penny work wise but gives the "corporate image" someone may want.  

It has also been used by the Metrolpolitan and Greater Manchester Police to "ensure" more non-white officers are seen on the streets of those particular cities when they have been recruiting.  This "positive descrimination" is apparantly justified by trying to make the police "representative" of the communities they serve with high "ethnic" populations.  It is but only one example.  Right or wrong?.....Wrong according to the "spirit of the law"

The military also have maximum age limits to their recruiting - agest or practical?  At what point are you too old to fight for your country?

We are all living in Ukraine and therefore some tolerence for a country which has come a very long way in a short space of time must be given.  As for enforcement, Ukraine has far bigger things to enforce before sexist advertisements - a workable tax system being just one for example.

For those of us who take such issue with such small things in a country with so much bigger issues ahead of it, IMHO need to wake up and smell the coffee.  

If we cannot put up with it, or find it so distasteful then go home to where everything is perfection - which of course it is not or you would never have left!

The advertisement was sexist as most would agree, it is not lawful here, as most would agree, the company would probably have got what they wanted even if they had stayed within the law one way or another, as most would agree - what they are guilty of, is being either so honest or naive or disrespectful of the law to state what they really wanted (candidly) and eventually would have got.  




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« Reply #92 on: June 24, 11:08 AM »

Wow...
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« Reply #93 on: June 24, 12:41 PM »

pls repost enlightening link

Ecocks if you are happy that the EU is going as politically correct as US, well good for you

i see just problems in that though

fortunately, at least in mediterranean europe, most of the laws go unlistened or cheated...we do not have time to waste and we do not aim at perfection.

RJM, can you read? I have been to Moscow's companies, I know little about Ukraine

Page 5 about 3-4 from the top.

It's your country.  If you're advocating ignoring your own laws take it up with your own people.

they are not our laws, they are probably some EU enforcement that no one gives a damn thing about

also it is the bad influence we receive from countries like US
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« Reply #94 on: June 24, 12:48 PM »

PompeyNick and Ecpcks, leaving aside what your national laws saying, do you find SEXIST stating the gender required for the job? I cannot figure how cultured adults like you got brainswashed into thinking this, or actually I can, especially for what concern Americans citizens.

Are you sure that most of EU citizens would care about that law? I keep seeing ads where the gender is stated (ie. some languages have masculine and feminine gender of adjective)

I think you waste your time on a NON-RELEVANT issue, there are other problems that would rather deserve your attention

PS.as far i know the British police tend to hire between minorities ALSO because it is difficult to recruit other people. this was on all newspapers in 200/2001 when London police could hardly find a white british citizen to enter the police.
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« Reply #95 on: June 24, 02:01 PM »

Moving - I do not consider myself brainwashed - as stated even in UK law it is legal to state a gender or age restriction in a vacancy advertisement in certain circumstances.

In fact I am probably the most "anti-management speak executive" person I know.  I am also someone who appreciates clear and precise speach in words that the majority understand rather than the minority.  Many times I have sat in boardrooms listening to someone who thinks they are the next rising star spouting management speak that neither he nor half the room fully comprehended instead of calling a "spade a spade" which all can understand.  It is a sad fact of the world we live in that people assume everyone understands what they are saying when they are trying to impress employing management speak.  If you break down the word assume as follows ASS/U/ME - that is what literally happens it makes an ASS of U and ME because what was thought to have been communicated or thought to have been understood was not due to Management Speak instead of Clear Speak.  The same applies with most "politically correct" things in the world today, most of which although well meaning initially have become a problem rather than a solution for which they were intended.
 
The fact laws are there which prohibit stating a gender in an advterisement, as I tried to point out above, does not stop any employer who has "a grain of experience" getting exactly what they want, be it male, female, animal, mineral or vegitable for any position regardless of what is written within the law.
 
I am divided on the issue - laws are there to be obeyed as they are SUPPOSED to provide protection and equality to all in society.  Therefore on that basis it is correct not to descriminate by gender, race, religion, creed and disability to name but a few in MOST cases, where it is insignificant who performs the task in a vacancy advertisement.

That said if somebody/a company specifically wants a female (using this example) regardless of the law and staying within it or not, they will employ a female (through positive descrimination).  This therefore wasted the time of every male who applied for the position (even though giving the outwrd impression of "fair play").

If a company employed someone to walk down the street saying "Any women want a job?" and subsequently employed a woman from this, freedom of speach (a democratic right) dictates that they could not be stopped from doing so.  Because it is not in print, and freedom of speach is a fundimental right in any democracy the chances of any successful prosecution would be negligable.

Considering "speach" is a form of communication as is "the written word" it shows the inadequacy of "polical correctness" laws.  Regardless of what is written in the laws, regardless of the good morals behind them,  regardless of all the safeguards in place, anywhere in any society people are descriminated against for any number of reasons. 

Even HR managers have "opinions" which will influence outcomes for an individual no matter how impartial they think they are - that is human nature.

Common sense would dictate that if a company are definate they will only employ a female (as in this example) then they should say so (as this company did) rather than pay lip service to the law and then "positively descriminate" to get their deired result.  Common sense however often goes head to head with the law and what happens is the system is manipulated to circumvent the law without being seen to break it.

I therefore would say that the law is there and should be respectfully applied (regardless of my personal view as to it's effectiveness in some cases).  So yes in the eyes of the law I would say it was sexist, however if the company were absolute in their resolve that the employee would be a woman then from their perspective they were at least being honest.
 
« Last Edit: June 24, 02:03 PM by Pompey-Nik » Logged

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Vera
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« Reply #96 on: June 24, 02:19 PM »

PompeyNick and Ecpcks, leaving aside what your national laws saying, do you find SEXIST stating the gender required for the job? I cannot figure how cultured adults like you got brainswashed into thinking this, or actually I can, especially for what concern Americans citizens.

Are you sure that most of EU citizens would care about that law? I keep seeing ads where the gender is stated (ie. some languages have masculine and feminine gender of adjective)

I think you waste your time on a NON-RELEVANT issue, there are other problems that would rather deserve your attention

PS.as far i know the British police tend to hire between minorities ALSO because it is difficult to recruit other people. this was on all newspapers in 200/2001 when London police could hardly find a white british citizen to enter the police.

Moving, there is such an idea as "slippery slope". I think we can talk about it in this case - allow one negative discriminatory thing and it might very well lead to all kinds of discriminatory statements in ads. Sex, age....what next? Race? National origin? Religeon? I mean clearly sounds like an exaggeration but why can't I,as an employer, ask about applicant's religion (maybe it matters to me as employer .....but it really shouldn’t) or national origin but can ask about sex? Most jobs (with some exceptions) can be done successfully by men and women equally well. Equal chance for an interview should be given to everyone with qualifications. Should we make it legal to ask a woman during interview about how many children she has and if she is planning to have more? That, in truth, a significant thing to an employer(benefits sick and maternity leave involved etc…), but should employers be asking that at the interview?


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Vera
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« Reply #97 on: June 24, 02:34 PM »

Again, I think, it is a matter of creating a good, common sense, practical, nondiscriminatory legislation. Such professions as actors and modes should definitely be excluded as an exception from the rule. If the modeling agency needs a model for advertising man's clothing ,can't they specify that? Imagine a whole bunch of women models applying to advertise men's suits or even funnier underwear. Anyways, the law should clearly state what professions are exempt and all the rest should follow the law of non-discrimination. Also the violation of this law could be easily caught and enforced. Maybe, as Nik pointed out ,it is not the most burning problem at hand but it is certainly one of the easiest to solve if only there was political will to do so.
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« Reply #98 on: June 24, 03:45 PM »

Ecocks, I see a big difference in stating the gender required for a profession and other factors such as religion, nationality (which is anyway stated in the resumes of most EU citizens - probably the only exception is UK?), etc...
Pretending a female for an office job (or any other job according to the employer needs) it is a simple LEGITIMATE requests and not discrimination.

I am sure most people would not see as a scandal to state the gender, it is the wave of PoliticalCorrectness who brought our government to do such (useless) laws

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« Reply #99 on: August 06, 12:17 PM »

Just to resurrect this one a Russian judge recently ruled that sexual harrassment is OK Shocked Shocked

http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/node/9406
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rjm
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« Reply #100 on: August 06, 12:35 PM »

Great "logic" by the judge  Grin
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Vera
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« Reply #101 on: August 06, 06:16 PM »

Thanks for posting the article.
No sexual harassment-no children!!! WOW!!!
And with statistics like that (100% of women were at some point sexually harassed) only 3 sued?!!!
Well I guess others were just "smarter" knowing that NOTHING will come out of it.!!!???
As we have talked before in many other threads, though, sometimes one doesn't know where the egg here and where is the chicken and what comes first.
Having seen how women dress in offices in Kiev it is only logical that they invite sexual harassment upon themselves.
Of course if you wear tight red top , expose midriff and you skirt barely covers whatever it is supposed to cover what does it tell to a man???!!!
So of course I struggle to see the connection between sexual harassment and desired population growth but hey this is THE RUSSIAN WAY of solving problems I guess. Oil may have made Russia richer but what will it take to change the mentality?
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JonathanCampion
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« Reply #102 on: August 06, 06:28 PM »

I've thought a lot about what it would take to change "the Russian mentality" - my theory is a big shake-up wherein they fail miserably at something on a global scale (Medvedev's relations with Sarkozy etc. go wrong or problems with Sochi 2012?) and take a look at themselves. They need to become more humble, and oil billions and selfish culture is having the opposite effect.

Ironically, I think Ukraine needs the exact opposite - to do something well on a global scale (integrate into the WTO?) , which would go some way to losing the inferiority complex that is the basis for its attitude to westerners and the West.

Just my opinion.
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