Ukrainian hospitals

[Christy]

I broke my toe today (moving computers during an office move - last time I stick my nose up at the constant offers of male Ukrainian colleagues to help ''because you're a woman'' ;-) )

Despite the old equipment (x-ray machine looked like it was out of the 1950s) and let's say less-than-NHS-standards-of-cleanliness, I have to say the service itself from staff was far and away beyond anything I've experienced elsewhere.  Although most of them were well past what I'd have thought was retirement age, all of them were dedicated and gave me sincere personal attention - the nurses in particular were not shy about hugging me and trying to teach me Russian to distract me from the needles! 

I'd far prefer to be treated as a person instead of a ''patient'' - and I was really taken aback by being treated like that in such a run-down (by comparison) place.  Really gave me food for thought (which I'll have plenty of time to ''munch on'', given that I'm stuck at home for 3 weeks apparently) :-)

[Carlushika]

I've given you an "Applaud" as there is no "Thank You" facility on this Forum Topic.

We have had cause to visit Ukrainian hospitals quite a few times for our own problems and those of family members. I can only agree with you that the care and dedication to duty goes way beyond anything we have ever experienced in UK. The equipment may be old but, for us, the important thing is who is operating it, who is checking the results, who is reporting back to us and who will look seek to provide a cure or whatever needs to be done.

I also thought at first the hospitals were unclean but I no longer believe that is the case. They may appear unclean but I am sure that this misguided initial belief was due to the fact that they are not renovated as frequently as in UK. I wonder if anyone of you forum folk are aware that 1 in 10 of UK hospital admissions acquire an infection (MRSA and Clostridium difficile amongst others) while in hospital? I do not have any Ukrainian data but I am sure that any infections would be far less than in UK.

Enough said.

[azzice]

Nice words. But the reality is that our National Health system is a BIG disaster. Especially for serious illness like cancer.

[JonathanCampion]

I'm sure it depends on the town (provincial hospital or one in Kyiv or Donetsk) and who it is "designed" for ('normal' Ukrainians, foreigners or those with money).

My experiences have been mixed: the one on the left bank is disgusting - cracked stone corridors, dark rooms, rude staff, very old equipment - more in my journal if you're not sqeamish), Borys is superb, and there was another one my girlfriend went to that was grim-looking but where she was treated well.

[P-N]

I think you are correct Jon.  I use Into-Sana for the majority of my medical care for reasons as they are close to my home, clean, modern and private (well I say private, I have an annual fee for my care, however you can simply walk through the door and pay as you go!).

My brother-in-law works at Ablastnoy Hospital in Odessa (and happens to be one of Ukraine's top surgeons - regularly being flown to Moscow and St Petersburg to operate on people in Russia - he is constantly being asked by America to go to America and work there which he refuses to do).

His hospital like most Ukraine standard health care hospitals looks delapidated, unclean and in need of serious refurbishment.  He will not leave the Ukrainian Health Service stating that he is there to help Ukrainians and the people of Odessa (kudos to him).  The only time he has been tempted to take "time out" was when I was offered an engineering gig in Saudi and they also needed doctors for 2 years......but his wife talked him out of it 

Getting back to the point - his hospital, dispite appearances, is fairly good (owing much to the standards of people like him), BUT as azzice points out, when his mother-in-law got cancer she was treated in Kyiv (via his contacts) as there was nobody in Odessa with the skills or standard of care that she could have got via his contacts in Kyiv.  She is now in recovery but would probably have died if treated in Odessa.

The other side to the coin of course is, as he is flown to Kyiv, Moscow, St Petersburg regularly, those which fall into his speciality (which is brain surgery) have little chance of survival in their locations unless people like him are flown in.

[JonathanCampion]

You can buy a medical degree here, so the standard of doctors is bound to vary. Can you imagine having a broken leg treated by someone who has never passed an exam in their life?

As Nik says, the (legitimate) Ukrainian doctors are recruited by hospitals in the Middle East (my girlfriend's dad has been talked out of going to Yemen), and those that speak English and have a driving license have a chance to move to North America.


My hospital experience, copied and pasted:

 The hospital that serves the people on the left bank of the River Dnieper is an awful place; an indictment of how little Ukrainians care about people they don't know, and how little of the government budget escapes the clutches of corrupt officials and can be spent on the public. The halls are made of stone, with cracks and holes in the floor that are being left to grow wider. The corridors are dim and echoey. Both patients and nurses look vaguely at the walls, with sick stares, and wait with not so much as a single chair.

It is an abbatoir with humans instead of carcasses.

When I was finally let inside a room for an appointment I wasn't the only patient there: a middle-aged woman was laying on a stretcher in the corner, absolutely unable to move. The only way I knew she was alive was by her occasional blinks. No-one was even looking at her. In the other corner, the basin where the doctors wash their hands had no soap and no towel.

I said to the doctor that my head was just sore, but that I had heard that there can be a delayed reaction to head injuries and that I was worried that I might pass out in a few days. His response was "Where did you hear rubbish like that?"

Later another woman drifted in, her face, hair and shoulders covered in bright green paint as if a canister had exploded in her hands. A chubby, dirty man walked in and sat next to me. He had a bandage wrapped around his head, from which a red dot of blood was leaking over his left temple. He was more polite to me than the doctor, reaching out his hand when he found out where I was from to say "Was ist das?" instead of "How are you?".

My choice was to be a day patient there for ten days, or to sign a 'refusal of care' form that explained that the hospital was not responsible for any worsening of my health. It took me thirty seconds to sign my name. None of the doctor's pens worked.

[mattsh]

I tend to agree, and disagree.   

Recently had a cyst removed, rather routine.  Last fall, a doctor a Boris wanted to remove it, but the insurance refused to cover it.  Just like in the USA!  So, my wife asked around, and found a rather good doctor to do it.  In fact, when he's not working at a local clinic, he works at Boris.  Yes, the hospital was a grungier version of a 1950's hospital, but everything worked, and the room where the procedure was performed was clean, but sparse.  And the staff was attentive enough.  But this was in and out in an hour.  My son was hospitalized for two days earlier this year, my wife needed to stay with him, and the patient rooms were deplorable.  Old mattresses, missing bedsprings, paint peeling, etc. 

Yet, at least the better parts of Ukraine healthcare are a breath of fresh air compared to the states.  I've been lucky.  Most of my adult life, I've had decent health insurance.  I had to stay overnight at Robert Wood Johnson University Hospital (yes, of the Johnson & Johnson fame).  It's very much a temple to the medical gods, and yes, in the states, doctors often treat themselves much as a god.  Try to go beyond your alloted 10 minutes or three questions, and their annoyance is obvious.  But they will put up with it, remembering that your next procedure may finance his son or daughter's next year at Harvard. 

[Christy]

I had to go back into hospital quickly yesterday due to a complication from the original patch work they did on my broken toe (which was not great, according to the second (much more fabulous) hospital). But I think this came down to what equipment was available in the first hospital, rather than lack of skill (most things were really out of date and the bandages etc. pretty basic).

But I still think that the service in the grungier hospital was just as superb as the second one (which had pictures of Ukrainian celebrities on the walls).  The speed of service in both was just incredible, yesterday I was in and out (including ambulance there and back) in something like 2 hours.  Unbelievable.

If we do decide to do a charity event for Ed's proposed Expat Day, then I vote for donating equipment (even loads of bandages and basic stuff), not money, to a local hospital :-)  And a bottle of detergent ;-)

[JonathanCampion]

They will, of course, sell the equipment and pocket the money.

[Carlushika]

They will, of course, sell the equipment and pocket the money.

Quite, Jonathan. The same occurs at the orphanages. We have devised a system whereby everything donated is recorded into a book and signed for by the administrator AND the person making the donation. On a subsequent visit, we were pleased to see the children's toys still there and, more importantly, the children still wearing the clothes, shoes and required slippers for indoors that we were able to buy for them at the fabulous 7km market just outside Odessa.

[JonathanCampion]

Is that the same 7th kilometre market in Odessa that is about to have a foreign-owned shopping mall built next door to it?

I didn't mean to sound so bluntly pessimistic about the hospital donation, it would be a great idea in most places, but we all know that people in low-paid jobs tend not to think of others when there is the chance to make some money.

[P-N]

Is that the same 7th kilometre market in Odessa that is about to have a foreign-owned shopping mall built next door to it?

I didn't mean to sound so bluntly pessimistic about the hospital donation, it would be a great idea in most places, but we all know that people in low-paid jobs tend not to think of others when there is the chance to make some money.

I don't know about the foreign shopping mall next to 7KM, but there is an Epicenter and will soon be an OBI - there is also a lot of land out there but at present I am unaware of any foreign shopping mall having planning permission.

[JonathanCampion]

I translated a piece about it work, so possibly the public don't know yet. I don't know Odessa at all but I like markets - the unusual things you can find there, unlike bland, uniform malls where you can get he same products everywhere.

[P-N]

I translated a piece about it work, so possibly the public don't know yet. I don't know Odessa at all but I like markets - the unusual things you can find there, unlike bland, uniform malls where you can get he same products everywhere.

7KM is definately not "bland" although it is not my favourite place - but if you want cheap goods, depending on which stall you go to, then it is the place to go.

[Carlushika]

The big 7km market, as Nik points out, is far from bland. It all depends upon what you want. There are some quality goods, usually supplied by the Turks. By way of example, leather goods such as jackets, wallets, handbags (for both sexes!) and shoes. (I have never understood why Ukrainians are willing to pay $300 or more for their pointy shoes).

Unfortunately or perhaps fortunately, we have to source Chinese made goods for the orphans. The quality may, in some cases, leave a lot to be desired but we are able to buy much, much more and clothe many more children than we normally could with our very, very limited funds.

For those willing to give the place a looksee, they now have a website which is quite interesting. With a little patience, you can check out the many suppliers and their goods.

http://www.7km.net/

Anyone fancying a visit should arrive early. Enjoy!

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